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The truth about Sync, Music Licensing & Co-writing. Chat with Elaine Ryan, a singer-songwriter based in San Francisco. 

Elaine Ryan is a singer-songwriter based in San Francisco. Born in Ireland and raised in Vancouver, she has toured Canada and the US, performs regularly as a soloist and occasionally plays with a full band. She writes at least one song a week, often over zoom with one of several co-writers she works with. Check out her newest releases Beautiful and Imagine on Spotify or Apple Music.


  • All about Sync Courses, co-writing and writing for a show
  • The difference between writing for yourself and writing for film and TV
  • How to Find a producer
  • Dispelling confusing about Sync & advice for those starting out
  • All about Vampiric narcissistic lovers! 


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Today Elaine, Ryan, born in Ireland and raised in Vancouver as you heard in the introduction, but now she's joining us from a place near San Francisco. I am sure we pronounce that wrong So can you tell us where you're calling from San Mateo, somebody actually, that's not that difficult.
What am I talking about.

So, um, I am so curious about your background. As you know, or you may or may not know I'm also quite international born in Italy lived in New Zealand now calling from Scotland. So, what is it like now being in San Francisco, just at the moment with the cows, the chaos that's happening in the world.
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny, I think that when you're wherever you are, you think like, Oh, I could if I could just escape where I am and go somewhere else, then it would be better but I'm not sure that it would. I mean, the United States is kind of a train wreck right now. Um, but, San Francisco and the Bay Area like the, the area around San Francisco is fairly well managed and coordinated, um, we have, we have good mayor's.

So, you know, I guess I, I don't know. I can't compare it too much to other places I know they have more of a grip on things in Canada.
But, you know, I guess, like last week or the week before it was a bit. It felt oppressive because we had these really dark red skies for a while because of those really big forest fires happening all through California and that can be so so sort of like you can't go outside because it's too smoky. And then, you know, so you're kind of stuck in your house.

Yeah, it was it was a bit much but you know like it's. I'm not sure that it's harder than in most places we haven't I haven't really seen many people since March, you know. Yeah, yeah, I can relate about to being in a different country and wishing or maybe if I was there things would be different but I think that Not really. Not really does your heart belong to a specific place more than others or are usually a child of the world.

Um, I've since moving to the Bay Area I've really found, like, a sense of belonging here that I haven't found in a lot of places, I feel like I've always been a bit of a wanderer, and I'm not sure if it's just that my personality is a little bit more independent, or that I grew up, you know in a few different places but I I haven't been one to find like a social niche and have a really big group I've always been the type of person to have solid friendships in different groups, and I've just found here especially with the music community more of a sense like of community among musicians particularly than I have found in other places so I'm, I'm happy here now you know I'm British Columbia is really beautiful. Ireland is lovely but but I feel, I feel at peace here I did live in in Maui, Hawaii for seven years as well so oh my god, I'm not gonna ask you what that was like is.

I bet is very different from all these places that you've described. One thing I wanted to ask you, because I was listening to your Spotify and I noticed that your music is quite changed during the last 10 years. So can you tell me a little bit about that because your latest release is really different in terms of the genre genre and what you're talking about. Can you tell me a bit more about that. So they're the to imagine and beautiful are much more like r&b pop and the my previous record was more, I guess, in the pop Abba contemporary kind of feeling.

So part of what's going on there is that I moved, like I've always loved r&b and soul music, and never could quite figure out how to write in that genre or I felt kind of blocked around it, and then moving to San Francisco there's this really big scene here.

And I went to a lot of gyms, kind of like a couple times a month I would go and sing with these amazing like jazz soul musicians and I think that that really put my head into the frame of that music and gave me the confidence to try to write in that style. And then I ended up taking a course on songwriting and music licensing. And through that course I met a lot of different people that I ended up co writing with some of who are r&b singers and writers and I kind of learned from them, how to write in that style and so one of my releases imagine is co written with an r&b singer. Brittany Davis she's in Toronto.

Yeah, and and also the it's a lot of how your song ends up sounding depends on the producer you choose. So, the producer that I was working with on those two songs has has like a very pop r&b sensibility, so Okay, yeah. Now I want to ask you a lot more about co writing but before we go there. I want to ask you a question, going back in time. So, how did your love for making music actually surfaced in your life What got you into making music.

Ah, I mean I've loved it since I was a kid, I remember, I got $50 for my grandmother. When I was five or six, which I was, you know, I saved away, and then I saved I got $1 a week for allowance. So you know I saved for several weeks in went to Radio Shack and bought myself a tape recorder.
And then, like, one of the most fun things for me to do was to like record me singing little songs. So, I've always loved singing and then, you know, when I was five or six or seven six or seven must have been I started writing little songs.

So yeah, it's something that I've always loved, and has always been a part of me, and then I think for a while there I thought I thought that it was like, selfish to become an artist I, When I was in university I studied international development and wanted to do something in the humanitarian realm, human rights law or international development, but I always loved music, and you know I got to a stage in in life where I was having a really hard time, emotionally, in music was kind of the only thing that felt like something that I really wanted to put my energy into and I ended up just going that direction and and following that and, you know, realizing that, um, there's plenty of people who want to have a career in in humanitarian work and I was just, you know, opening the door for them to take my spot.

Well, I've never heard someone actually asked that question, is it selfish to become an artist I would have never occurred to me, because in a way you know you are a conduit. If you like this when I look at it for a message or something that's bigger than you I mean even if you're writing, just about yourself. Sometimes a specific specificity can be quite universal and can help someone else, especially if you're channeling your emotions and your, what you're going through is through your music.

Yeah, I agree. I think that the idea that it's some fish like selfish to be an artist was something that I was a younger version of myself I think maybe well when I was young, at least I had ideas that I wanted to change the world and really big concrete ways. And I think, you know, as I get older, I realized that, you know, there's billions of people on the planet, and the, you know, I think it's much better to do the thing that you're good at, or just find a way that you can serve in a small way.

And that you can help others doing the thing that feels good, or feels like your path, you know, yeah, playing to your strengths, rather than weaknesses. And I like this idea of finding the way that you can serve in a small way because that small way you never know what consequences might come of it.
And in terms of your artistic practice. What's your creative process how do you get into the writing process.
So that's something that's really changed for me in the last year, I, you know, when I started writing. I think I was younger and I had a lot of just emotional pain and stuff that I was dealing with and I would just kind of write to try to process relationships, what I was going through. And then there came a time when.

Like I felt really dry, when when I was living in Hawaii, I, I don't know what if it was the weather or just that it wasn't cosmopolitan is very rural, I just felt really uninspired and like I couldn't find that, well of creativity and it was really hard. And then when I moved to the Bay Area, it became a bit more easy, and then really the thing that has like been revolutionary for me just since probably since a year ago I started taking this course on music licensing and they were.

I ended up joining a Facebook group called the song tribe, it's just a small Facebook group there's about 50 of us. And the woman who runs it gives us a prompt every week, and it can be a small, the prompt might just be the word silver or gold or it might be dream, or it might be. What's other ones we've had storm, anything social just give us one word, and the rule is you need to write a song and the word needs to be in the song somewhere.

So, you know, even if the, even if the song is like if the word is like future you know you can write a song about the future or you can just have a line that says, the one I wrote was just forget about the future. How are you right now, and just having that, like we have to post our song in the Facebook group, every week so I'm, I have to write a song, every week so I've written like 35 songs since February, one a week because I'm good at, I'm, I'm good at doing my homework, so that's just been really really amazing, and I've just realized like all that I need is one word, and the pressure to write and and there's not really that much magic to it like there's not really like I need to be lighting candles and in this special space and feeling the Certain Way and meditating and, you know, stuff that I thought, you know, because when you know that you're writing a song every single week. The song this week doesn't have to be amazing. You'll be writing it over next week so like, it kind of unblocks you you don't have to feel like this needs to be a masterpiece. You just feel like I just need to get this done by Sunday, though.

Yeah. And then a lot of turns out to be good work, you know, this is a really inspiring me a because at the moment I feel a little bit blocked be because of our Facebook group so I can use exactly the same idea and still.
It's wonderful. Um, I like you, I'm a bit like that I need to have the pressure. I actually respond well to deadlines.
And, you know, having to do something, and to show it to other people, I think that's actually quite important.

And so you were mentioning call writing with, was it with zoom, what do you want to tell me a bit more about that. Sure. Um, first let me just say one more thing about process. Another trick that I discovered was walking. I think about I come up with a theme that I want to write a song about and then I go for a walk with my phone, but not listening to podcasts or music on my phone I just go for a walk. And I just find it. I don't know stuff starts to come into your mind when you're distracted by walking, so love that.

Well I mean scientifically we do know that walking is one of the best forms of exercise and anti stress. So that doesn't surprise me too much. And also just being with yourself a little bit of space without the distraction of other people can be very good. Oh my god, I think I need to make a cup of tea and eat this thing and do on yeah yeah there's always something to do there. So yeah, so I started co writing, I guess, maybe a year and a half ago I just had a friend here in San Francisco, who I was, you know, he was taking some time off to work on music and we decided to meet once a week or so and start writing we didn't really know what we were doing and that lasted a little bit and then he went back to his tech jobs so that kind of fizzled out.

Um, but then I took this started taking this course called six figure songwriting and it was through this woman Kathy Heller and basically they are trying to teach us how to write with an eye to TV and film and you know some of the things are like make sure that you try to keep the scenes broad, you know like try to make it authentic but maybe don't put in personal very personal details you know like how you met such a such place and such a time and her name was Michelle and, you know, um, and, but then one that one of the things they really emphasized was to co write, because, um, you know, just all of the pop songs on the radio that you hear, almost all of them are co written these days and it's sort of just like more than one mind comes up with something better and I still do write some songs on my own for sure.

Especially since I'm forced to write a song, a week and sometimes I don't have the bandwidth to, to like find organize the CO write in time, but basically we just we just decide what the theme is going to be maybe it's from the song tribe or maybe we're aiming to pitch a song to a particular TV show or film or music supervisor and then we think okay let's write a song about like overcoming hardship. And then we both. Sometimes if it goes ideally we both like on a Google Doc, we share a Google doc and we brainstorm various lyric ideas and, or, you know, we sing some melody ideas into our phone on the voice memo.

And then we bring that to a co write session, keeping it loose trying not to have built the whole song or anything but come with some ideas and then just sit down for a couple hours and try to hash out, you know, a verse in a chorus like a song structure and then sometimes we get finished in a couple hours and then sometimes we say okay let's think about it and meet again in a week and yeah that's kind of how it works. Well that sounds very interesting and have you found that you didn't have much of a problem with this process or were they any obstacles that you didn't expect.

Um, I think, like, one of the things is that it's, it's really important I think if you want to try co writing to do it with a bunch of different people because every interpersonal dynamic is different, you know, like in some.
If there's two people in a co write in some situations, though, there will be someone with like a stronger like more dominant personality than mine who wants to take the lead and, um, you know, say that, you know, kind of guide, the process more and then in others on that person and then again and others it's more just even. And so yeah so it's important to try to find people who you're kind of like, and I was going to see simpatico with but then I'm like oh she's Italian, I know this.
You know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I mean that's that's one of the, the main things, I guess.
I mean, yeah, like there's some songs that I've written that are where I've written a verse and a chorus and the actual lyrics are quite close to my heart. And so I, I'm very careful about who I co write with on a song like that because I want them to kind of honor the spirit in which it was written and not want to deconstruct it entirely.

So I guess the songs that I feel really close to. I maybe don't co write with or I only would co write with maybe one or two people who I feel really trusting of or or who I feel are are okay with like letting me run with the thickness the thing that's dear to my heart. Then other songs. Like, especially if we're writing a song with an end in mind, like thinking like, let's write a song that would work for, for this show or for whatever.

Then it, it songwriting. It's, um, it becomes a bit more depersonalized it becomes less about me and my issues, and it's more like, this is the song we want to write. What can I bring from my experience that, what can what what kind of true emotions can I bring from things in my life to infuse this song with, you know, kind of beauty or authenticity or inspiration. Yeah, so it sounds like it becomes more like a job, you're a professional and you're doing the job of a professional. But how do you choose your co writers and have you ever worked for example with someone you didn't know, must be someone you know quite well.

No So, like, yeah, I met I met most of the people that I co write with now I met in this course there was like 300 people in the course and I just, like, they were in a Facebook group and I looked up their stuff and or one of them I met at a conference and he sort of looked up their Spotify or their website and sort of took a look at what they had done already and if I like their style and then I just sent them a Facebook message and, you know, we were already in the group together so I would just say hey do you want to try.

Do you want to track co write, and then you know you give a, give it a try. See how, how it feels and then if it works, you do it again and then you end up like forging these new friendships with these people sounds so good I'm gonna try it definitely gonna try, especially in this time zone and you know we're not, we currently meet at gigs, we can't really, you know, do it in an organic kind of way this is the best next thing.

It's really cool i mean i find sometimes people feel busy and that don't want to like have a zoom, just to hang out, but if you have a task at hand, then there, there's always some hanging out part involved in that beginning and so it kind of is part of a social interaction, for sure. Yeah, so at the moment. How big a role does music play in your life. Is it filling it up completely, or is it is your time divided. It's kind of 65% of my day.

I, my husband has a business that makes electronics for people who raise sailboats, and they have like a factory in San Mateo and they only have one worker and because of the pandemic they can't hire anybody else so I'm already in the bubble. So I have been working there and I'm kind of putting in a couple of hours a day doing that and then the rest of the time is music slash life organization.

Yeah. A question that I always like to ask, which is a bit of a difficult question but you know, that's why I ask it to absolutely everybody that comes on the podcast almost everyone is some. What does success really mean to you as a musician. There's so many ways you can define success, and there's ways that I will say that I feel already successful, but I think I right now like before pre pandemic I earned my living my full living as a musician playing weddings and events. And that was.

I felt I feel lucky that that's something I've been able to do, but the majority of that is playing cover songs, because it's weddings and corporate events and people want to hear what they know and like it's a business and so you got to get to give the people what they want.

I think I would feel successful if I was able to make money off of my original compositions. Yeah, so I mean that's that's the honest answer, I could give you some answer about as long as I get to write songs, every week on successful, and there's, you know there's some truth in that I feel. Let's put it, let's maybe, maybe separate success.

Right. I would say, I am happy right now. Um, I love that I get to write a song a week and I love that I get to co write songs and get them produced and release them. It's absolutely my life's joy, you know, um, you know I have gigs here and there. So I'm bringing in income that way I'm helping my husband at his work. So I feel a sense of like purpose and fulfillment and like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing like I have no doubt that I'm.

I used to spend a lot of time being afraid that I was not doing the right thing that I needed to be doing something that gave me more social status, you know, you know I was always like, oh, should I go back and, you know, finish a master's degree Should I go and should write a book should I started like a web app to help people find live music but that didn't end up working out too well but you know helped people in Maui.

And so I really wanted a sense of like, you know, people want you want people you want to feel important you know you want people to think that you're important. And I guess I grew up very academically inclined and I could have gone the route of law school, or masters PhD, that kind of thing, and I chose to be an artist instead and so sometimes I'm like I want people to think I'm important, but I've kind of like over time made peace with that. and the people who I really care about.

They don't they like me who I am and what I do and they don't need me to be important.
But so yeah so happiness, I feel I have it right now, success in, in terms of, like, if we're being honest, a sense of conventional success.

I think I would, I would feel more of that if I was able to earn more of my living from, from music that I, you know, at least had a hand in writing. Yeah, I can really relate to that and I am, I am really impressed by your honesty because a lot of people, you know, aren't really honest you know maybe they just want to kind of process. Looking good, I guess, I think it is normal to want to have to feel significant, but I think also that we are a bit conditioned, you know we're conditioned by the capitalist society that we live in and their values things that are attached to money. And so if something isn't attached to money then it's not important. Then, unfortunately yeah this just gets into our heads, I have to admit I'm exactly the same. I wish I could get this idea out of my head because it is very toxic, you know it doesn't help. Creativity at all. In fact, if anything hinders it yeah so I admire your, your candid answer and.

But at the same time you know we all want to survive with the fruits of our labor, and there's nothing wrong with that either. You know, so that's so many questions I want to ask you, so let's sum up start with the wedding's. So, do you enjoy doing this sort of work even though it's covers, I do. Yeah, I like it, I mean you're making someone's you're making someone's day and, you know, it's singing songs, it's nice that is lovely. I think it only better than welcome pumps and pumps.
Yeah, for sure singing in pubs is rough because your background music nobody cares about you.

Yeah, especially if you want to have this sort of significance. It really is a knocker yeah for sure. Yeah, singing in pubs, or busking, I think is maybe I mean busking was the best thing like playing on the street for money like with a band is super fun, because you just, you know, hang out with each other but solo busking is like, um, you know hurts your heart. Yeah, yeah well I'm so glad I found someone who understands that because I could never do it I tried to do it. And it was just crushed me you know and I was like, Nah, I can't do this I'm sure maybe I've gone really bad attitude.

I mean I did it out of necessity, a few times once I came like I went, traveling to Europe and came back and like, Rob had run out of money and couldn't you know the time that it takes to get a job you still need two weeks to get the paycheck to come through, so I was like I need money now. So I busked every day for about a month and I made solid, I was able to pay rent and, you know, but it does require a sort of, I don't know if it's like a thick skin, like I don't even know if that's possible for me I feel so like, it's like a sensitive person but sometimes, sometimes you know someone's nice I had someone give me $100 once a year, which was like, very uplifting. Yeah, that's what that was a 50 pounds which actually back 2020 years ago it was quite a lot of money. I mean it's still quite it's quite a lot of money now. And the funny thing is that I remember this because I was singing, and a song by john Byers, and the, the person thought that I was singing like a Scottish song. It was quite silly it's really weird and I was dressed like a Scottish person because it was a bit of a gimmick, you know, so it's like, No, I'm Italian I'm not Scottish and I'm singing a song.

So the other question I wanted to ask you about is related to the songs that you are now making. For example, the last 35 songs it's a lot of songs, what do you do with them Do you, do you just let try to place them for sinking, do you release them, what do you do. Um, okay so 35 songs the songs I've written not songs I've recorded. Um, so, but what what it does do is give me a lot of things to pull from like I, I basically tried to be recording a new song, monthly. So that's just one a month so then I will look back through what I have and pick something. Or else, sometimes I don't even use those songs that I've been writing, I started a new co write with one of my co writers and. Yeah. So, I think I pick one and I guess.

Um, yeah, I mean it depends on how the song turns out sometimes I'm not the singer, you know, sometimes, like most of the time if I am the singer on the song then I'll release it. Um, so I'll put it through districted and get it in Spotify and apple. And, you know, I'll promote it on Instagram for a couple days and then just let it be. I do know people who like pay, there's certain services you can get to like get them put landscaper pay like 500 bucks to like have it go on a bunch of different playlists and, you know, so you can say oh my god, I got a lot of work. It does. It does, you can get you know your 5000 streams.

If you pay to have them put on the various playlists. Um, But I guess I feel like I'd rather use the $500 to like record the next song. So I just allow my allow my numbers to be less than 1000 on Spotify and, and just move on with the next one, you know, yeah, I'm seeing. I see what you're saying. And in terms of recording. So do you have a producer that you work with, do you work with different producers, where do you find your producers so three, three questions and one.

Ah, again I like I mean, in the past, like the like former albums, I all recorded those in Vancouver and I found the producers through word of mouth I would ask someone who produced their thing and they told me. No, this guy and this the last, like some of my previous recording was in 2013, and then this like since then, I've recorded like I don't know 10 or 12 songs.

And I think I'm singing on 12345 of them. Um, and I've released three I'm about to release a fourth. Um, So of those.
Of those, one producer who's super excellent is the boyfriend of a girl that I met in the course, and I just heard stuff he had done for her and was like this is epic I love it. One of them is a friend of somebody else that I am a co write with, she met him in Nashville. And, you know he was his rate was pretty decent. So I had did a couple songs with him. And then another guy who I worked with in the course.
We've done a collaboration so I think I've.

And then I'm not yeah I think I've worked with like four producers. Since, maybe in the last year. And then there's two of them that I kind of now are my go twos. Although, I know I need to keep looking. Keep looking but yeah so kind of like, I think like if that's just me I if I hadn't done this course and was looking for producers, then I would go on Facebook and look in. Um, Facebook groups, there's kind of like a bunch of different groups like make pop music, different kind of groups for producers, or for people who are writing music.

I think a lot of people, I mean there's great producers all over the world, there's a lot of great ones in, in LA and Nashville. And, you know, I think it would just be it's just a matter of like listening to songs that have, they've done and seeing if it sounds like radio quality and then, yeah, then just testing it out, you know, try getting other people to recommend or listening to other indie artists and seeing that you like seeing who produced them, and getting their producer, like it's, yeah, I mean obviously if they're famous you can't afford the producer.

So these new songs, when are they coming out.
Okay so beautiful and imagine and I got this are already out.
The when we're together is coming out on in a couple weeks, let me just see.
I think it's October 9 or 16th. I can.
Let's see.
Let me just check the email real quick.
Okay, when we gather.
Ah, oh, October 2 Okay, better, a better get my, I get better get my Instagram posts ready. Yeah, so, you know, week. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'm excited about that one. So, yeah, that's coming out in a week, um, others that I've done. I don't know I have to ask my co writers if they're willing to release them like some songs.

I like a co writing name called moonlit dare for songs that I'm not the singer on, but that the singer doesn't want to release under their name, like, because they're trying, they're trying to have their own personal brand that's,
that's one way like for example when this guy that I write with Vaughn Faison.

I think his own like style is a bit more folk soul like maybe more Leon bridges or more john mayer that kind of, um, is the. I might be completely misrepresenting him, but that's what I think is is the vibe that he feels like is close to his heart and what he wants to put out under his name. So, the song one of the songs that I've written with him is been released as moonlit dare featuring Vaughn Faison because he's the singer on it.

So I don't know we we may or may not release that yeah so that's uh that's when I'm not sure when those things are going to come out those are songs I've been pitching regularly you know I send a bunch of emails every week to music supervisors and share the song and say you know if this something that might be useful. Here's the song. And how's that been going. How long have you been doing that for and how long is and how's it been going.

I have been doing that since probably February I've been like ditching music, and it's been great. I've had a lot of people say you know this is, like, say that they liked the song that it's useful, you know, and then, like, we're in the middle of a pandemic so like nobody's making what not nobody but there are very few relatively few films, television ads being made right now.

So I'm hoping that that I end up you know getting a license for something. After you know the vaccine. But um, yeah I had a conversation like a 30 minute conversation with a music supervisor and ad agency yesterday and I shared like four songs and he told me that he would put them all on various playlists that he uses to pitch. So like it's not like you interact with the music supervisor. But then, like they will get. I don't know like a beer company will come to them and say hey, we're doing this ad and it's featuring like I don't know like car racing along a track or something. We want a song that has like a real strong rock vibe with the word, you know, freedom.

What do you have. So, and then they look through the stuff they have for that send it to the client and then that person decides, same with, TV shows, it's like okay it's a scene where, you know, somebody.
I don't know it's just I don't know they're driving off into the distance with their friend or whatever. Yeah, so like, it's one of those things it's kind of a long game, and it's about making as much music as you can and then, and then having it out there and then also I have a few of my songs represented by like sync agencies like people who have relationships with all of these music supervisors already. And so they have signed the song for a year or two, and then they get briefs from the music supervisor so because they have those trusted relationships with them.

The music supervisors when they get one of these like we have a, we have a love scene that requires like a slow pop song or requires, whatever. That sounds like, or like an upbeat song It's a bit like in the do a leap of I would have for that, then that sync agency has its catalog, and we'll go through and send them stuff so, um, yeah, I have a bunch of songs wrapped by a couple agencies. So, yeah, so for the younger audience.

That is just getting into this Do you have any recommendations like when one wanted to get into sync you know what's called that you would suggest, I would suggest taking a course, not necessarily the one I did, but there's a lot of different people doing online courses on music for sync licensing, there's a bunch of free resources.

Like, I would just google sync licensing course. And there'll be a bunch of stuff that is like, take my three day free course and then they'll upsell you on to the longer course.
And a lot can be learned by doing all of everyone's, three, three day free course. And then just keeping in mind that you don't have to panic and by the longer course right now you can do all of the free courses and and know that in three months, three to six months time. The like the paid courses will all be offered again. So, yeah. Yeah, so, um, I, so that's one of the things like he like learn nuts and bolts of music licensing is sort of like what what kinds of songs they need.

You know how to, how to walk that line between writing a song that's authentic, that that doesn't sound like. I made the song for dad. Or, you know I'm kind of doesn't sound cheesy so like trying to find that line in terms of songwriting if I broke it down, I would, there's like a few things number one is, if you take the courses you start to learn that it's possible, and you start to learn that like, this isn't a pipe dream. This is actually a way that you could make money. There sure there's a certain amount of luck and timing involved, but it is something that if you put your energy into.

You can make it happen. And then another key component is collaboration, like in order to get the songs made you need to collaborate with producers for sure, and writers will definitely make your work better. So that involves a network and that is like doing a paid course does get you the network because there's usually like a Facebook group involved, but you can also go on Facebook, and just and there's lots of like pop music professionals, all these different groups, you can go in there you can research people you can say hey I'm wanting to co write, you'd be interested in CO writing and just like a lot of it is just having the courage to reach out to people and not take offense if they ignore you, because you know a lot of people are busier they just don't know who you are so they don't want to I.

And the one thing I would say for if you are reaching out to people is really important that you include a link to your work like include a link to your best couple of songs so they can see like you could be anyone you could, you know you could be someone who's never written a song in your life.

Yeah, those are those are the things that I would recommend basically really learn your stuff about sync licensing before you go and try to pitch songs, because I think one of the biggest things that I was confused about before is like I have three albums of songs that I wrote before I took this course and I was like, I just need to find the people who need the songs I've written.

And it wasn't really like that, like, because, number one, they need the songs to be like fresh, so like generally recorded in the last two years with the kind of production values that are current. So sounding like current pop or current folk or current whatever.

Um, that's one and then two, the way that I was writing before just wasn't really conducive to licensing like a lot of the stuff, a lot of what they need is songs with spaciousness songs where the vocal can sit in the background. And there can be dialogue happening over it sounds with long sections of oohs or molars, or stuff that's not words but vocal stuff. Yeah, and then songs that are not about like, it's very rare that they play songs like or they have a glut of songs about heartbreak, like because everybody writes a song about their heart being broken.

They need songs about like family love home happiness freedom. Feeling good like swag or feeling confident, like togetherness, overcoming rising up like these are the kind of things that they're always looking for. And so part of it is kind of training yourself to see how you can write a song like that, and pick themes that, that, that still feel authentic for you, and genres that still feel authentic for you and just search for trying to like navigate that well you're so knowledgeable about this you could write your own course.

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